All things being arranged, we convened at our oratory, and Mangu-khan sent three of his secretaries, a Christian, a Saracen, and a Tuinian, to be judges of the controversy. It was first proclaimed, "This is the order of Mangu-khan, and none dare say that the commandment of God is otherwise. Let none speak contentiously, or use injurious words to one another, or make any tumult whereby this business may be hindered, upon pain of death." There was a great assembly, as every party had convened the wisest of their sect, and many others came flocking around to listen; but all were silent. The Christians set me in the middle, willing that I should contend with the Tuinians; who murmured against Mangu, as no khan had ever thus endeavoured to search into their secrets. Yet they opposed one from Kathay to me, who had his interpreter, while I had the son of the goldsmith to interpret my words. The Kathayan said to me, "Friend! if you be put to a nonplus, who must seek a wiser than thou art?" To this I made no reply. Then he demanded whether I would dispute as to how the world was made, or as to what became of the souls after death? For they were desirous to begin with these questions, as they held them for the strongest in their doctrines, all the Tuinians following the heresy of the Manicheans, believing in a good and a bad principle, and they all believe that souls pass from body to body. In confirmation of this, the goldsmith told me they had brought a person from Kathay, who, by the size of his body, appeared to be only three years old, yet was capable of reasoning, and knew how to write, and who affirmed that he had passed through three several bodies. Even one of the wisest of the Nestorians demanded of me whether the souls of brutes could fly to any place after death where they should not be compelled to labour.